Jang Hui Bin – Is she pure evil? Or does she act out of love?

My posts on the drama Dong Yi (MBC 2010) are still the most read posts on my blog. And here’s an interesting  question about Jang Hui Bin …

Dong Yi, MBC, 2010, the villain, Jang Hui Bin

Hi, i’m from malaysia and i just finished watching dong yi, i know im late but i had to take my time because i had to concentrate on my studies. i dont know where to post my questions as there are no discussion about Jang Hui Bin in your blog. i am very confused by this character. while i love her 3 dimensional character, im still confused by how she can choose to commit to henious acts and the same time, claiming that she did it out of love for the king. how could she say that? she seemed to set her eyes on power from the very beginning, even before she was made a concubine. how can she blame the king when it was actually she was the one who made the choices? i desperately need to discuss this with someone but my mather has not finish watching Dong Yi so i have no one to discuss this with.  whitevenusandmars

Dong Yi, MBC, 2010, Dong Yi and Jang Hui Bin face off 

Hmm. It has been a while since I watched this drama, but I remember being OUTRAGED at Jang Hui Bin’s behaviour! (Dramatically though, she was a great baddie and this kept me hooked through the drama.) I think Jang Hui Bin does love the king at first and so feels VERY jealous when Dong Yi arrives. (But I agree she was definitely after power from the beginning.) Up until now SHE has been the king’s favourite. But Dong Yi seems to have such a special relationship with the king – and Jang Hui Bin gets pushed out. (I felt sorry for her at this point. After all, the concubines spend their time waiting for the king to come and see them. So it must be upsetting when he loses interest in them …) Jang Hui Bin probably had a lot of time to sit and think bad thoughts about Dong Yi!

But I think the big change comes when Dong Yi has a son. Before, Jang Hui Bin was upset because she was losing the affection of the king. But now she is upset as a mother – and this is totally different. She worries that her son, the crown prince, could lose the throne to Dong Yi’s son. And this is UNTHINKABLE to her. So her thirst for power plus her hatred for Dong Yi turn her jealousy into an obsession. (By now, surely any feelings of love for the king are overpowered by her feelings of jealousy, greed, and hatred of Dong Yi)

Along with her power crazy brother, she is prepared to do anything to make sure her son becomes king. I don’t think she was like this at first but her brother and mother don’t help matters. She is pushed further and further into evil – by her own actions, but also by her family’s behaviour. She becomes neurotic – she refuses to trust Dong Yi who tries to reach out to her several times. Jang Hui Bin can’t believe that Dong Yi is not interested in power because she herself craves it so much. And on top of this, things just don’t go in her favour – her son becomes ill and it is clear that Dong Yi’s son (who became King Yeongjo) is intelligent and healthy and will make a great king. Poor Jang Hui Bin. It’s a pity she became so desperate. She was simply unprepared to accept the situation. She says she acts out of love for the king, but I think this is just her way of trying to excuse her actions – even to herself. But in the end, she has nobody to blame but herself. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

48 thoughts on “Jang Hui Bin – Is she pure evil? Or does she act out of love?

    • JOJ (Jang Ok Jung live for love) is Based on the 2008 chick lit novel by Choi Jung-mi, it is a reinterpretation of Jang Hui-bin’s life, in other words is not historically accurate and comes mostly from the imagination of the writer not from historical accounts, Dong yi Portrayed her better according to history. Also Dong Yi did not presented her as evil as other dramas portray her. You should watch Jang Hui bin 2003 if you are interested in a more accurate version of this Story. they followed the documents and sources very well.

      • I don’t believe history though,
        I assume both of them actually a great girls
        You shouldn’t believe history at once,
        ” there’s lying under the truth ”
        maybe politic make them look like that
        a girl is just a girl who loves their man ^^
        there is no bad girl and good girl,
        same as actual life

        Just enjoy this as drama, no more wrong opinion.

        • So, if we don’t trust history who should we believe? Writers? Rumours?

          I agree that there can be lying under the truth, but thats why one must to investigate the facts with open mind…Actually many of the bad things that were said about Jang hui bin had been discarded by history as little reliable, and political propaganda against her.

          But there are facts that can’t be discarded as easily, because they are recorded in many sources, pro and against her and because there was proof of those, true we weren’t there, but thats the information we have, without this information we wouldn’t even have any trace of evidence, or even characters (plus say goodbye to Jang hui bin all dramas and Dong yi) so what historians do is to look back and separate what it is more likeable to be false rumors and what was fact. They do that through documents, annotation, diaries, letters, government books etc.

          Both Dong Yi and Jang hui bin are just dramas and should not be taken as a Historical sources, so people should not said “look this drama to find the true about this person” thats what I cleared that Jang og Junk live for love is “just a drama” that was base in a novel and have been deviated far from the true facts of history to gain audience and ratings, actually the drama changed their script many times because they were aiming ratings, but the korean audience did not like it. But i believe that of all the dramas I have seen the one that stick more to the information we have is Jang hui bin 2003. Yet they did include some details that are considered as rumours rather than fact,

          So you should not discard history at once, and believe all the writers tell you in a drama,(that if you want to find what actually happened in real) Seriously writers they just want your rating, so they can have betters jobs. also they already are admitting that is been change in many ways (jang ok jung chap. 01) But I agree with you that you should watch them just as drama, and not as historical source. :D

  1. yeah.. u should watch Jang Ok Jung, Living In Love.. then u’ll know my she acted like that.. just because she loved the King so much.. she need the power to enable her to love the king with no obstacles..

  2. I do not feel “Jang Ok Jung, Live in Love” portrayed Jang Hui-bin accurately. The ratings of the show prove that a great many of the Korean people felt the same way because that Jang Hui-bin deviated too far from history’s recording of her. Yes, history is written by the winners so she could have been maligned because she was obviously in the end the loser, however modern scholars have reviewed history and the sources they have available including the stories passed down and she was not as good as she was portrayed in that drama which I feel has influenced many people enthralled with the love story to denounce history because they prefer a sappy love story instead. If she was like the drama portrayal, wrongly maligned, her son could have done something to change that bad propaganda against her when he was king. True he only ruled for four years, however he also allowed a chance to rule before his father passed away so he had more then four years to try do something. Other kings have done the same when they gained power for a parent they felt was wronged. Even if he wasn’t successful there would have been something in the royal records of his attempts.

    I believe that the Hui-bin in Dong Yi is probably more accurate. Not completely evil as the previous dramas about the infamous woman, but not the innocent victim that “Jang Ok Jung, Live in Love” would make her to be. Instead she was a woman who probably felt some affection for the king, maybe even love, but who loved the power that she gained from the king more in the end as Dong Yi’s Jang Hui-bin proved.

    • @ Darksongstress

      First of all, just because ratings were from one part of Korea were low doesn’t make your opinion or their opinion on the History more accurate in Dong Yi than Jang Ok Jung. Ratings are actually much higher all over the world for Jang Ok Jung. Like you said, the viewers that voted gave it a low rating because to them, it didn’t follow “what was written” in history. But then again, who are we to say what was written in History is correct? For Example, look at America’s History. It didn’t exactly happened how it was written. They make their enemies sound really evil and themselves super good.

      Second, you’ve stated that modern scholars have reviewed the history/sources and the stories passed down. Again, modern scholars may be only looking at what was written and the sources are most likely from the winner’s perception. Stories passed down could be from false rumors or how the manipulated villagers/people perceived Jang Ok Jung, doesn’t mean the stories are accurate. Have you ever heard of the telephone game? Information passed down, most of the time is never accurate or manipulated in some way.

      Third, of course most son or daughter will dispute what is not true about their parent. That is if they are on the same page. For all we know, King Gyeongjong (Hui-bin’s son) could have attempt or made the correction, but because he was forced to give up his throne after 4 years of ruling to King Yeongjo (Dong Yi’s son), who could have changed or the recordings to make his mother sound more or less evil than Hui-bin. Again, the winner will make or get rid of evidence to make themselves look good. Therefore, King Yeongjo could have gotten rid of any correction attempts made from King Gyeongjong and made new recordings for history. I’m not saying this happened. All I’m saying is that there are many possibilities. You don’t have to follow or believe what’s written in History is always true.

      Tell me, if Hui-bin was so evil, why did King Sukjong loved her so much? Why did the King allow her to die in his arms? Why did he bury her next to his with the Queen? He was also seen leaving poems on the tomb.

      You can’t stop questioning History whether it was written correctly or not when watching Jang Ok Jung. I think they did an incredibly great job on what Hui-bin’s perspective might have been. On the contrary, Dong Yi was too unrealistic for me. How the hell does she always sneak around the palace when security is supposed to be really strict and tight? I found her character really annoying and stupid. Her cheerfulness seemed so forced. I don’t know if it’s just the main actress’ bad acting or the writer’s part, but the show has too many damn flashbacks and it drags.

      • DarkSongstress… I agree With you…Jang hui bin is more accurate portrayed in Dong Yi drama…The history comes from annals of joseon which are the diaries of the kings and were written day by day, once written nobody was allow to changed and to change to many of them was impossible since they talked about almost everything, from the diary living of the king to costumes and reforms, art and education,which made very difficult to manipulate the result of a situation, there are also the diaries of the Royal secretary, which were in charge of the public relations of the king, appointment, sentences, dismisses etc., you can find both online… and also those diaries agree with her portrayal from the annals of Joseon of Jang hui bin,

        Jang Ok Jung is a drama based on a novel from 2008 named Jang hui bin live by love, it has not authentic historical value, the writer took historical characters and made her own imaginary story of what if…the production en episode 01 told you clearly it was a fiction drama based on historical characters…

        Now, jang hui bin did not died in the arms of the king thats from the novel of 2008… The true behind that in real history is way far from the novel. that he was seen leaving poems in her tomb was also from the book of 2008… She was not buried with the king she was buried in other part and actually the type of tomb she was given to her was a tomb for a very low class and commoners, they moved her tomb in 1969 because the growing city together with sukjong and his second and third wives but its not with them but in the same historical place in other area.
        Now historical facts..
        It was the king who order her to died,He was determined to kill her, her supporters send petitions to the King begging him to forgive her in the base of the stability of crown prince, but instead he banished and killed all that opposed (1700 people ) he was very upset at her, he order to the palace workers (stated in the royal secretary book) the immediate removal of Jang hui bin body after she was death…He even disapproved her son to became a King and tried to drive him out, Soron was actually very worry the King would demoted him from his throne and gave the position to Yeongjo, who was very bright, and tried to assassinate him but couldn’t, Inwon hide him under his skirt ! Annals of joseon stated that she was a women of great virtue who sacrifice her self in that embarrassment way..
        I think in the beginning she loved the King, and the king loved her, but he was a man and a King, after he got what he needed from her he discard her, he demoted her and brought back Inhyeon (that would be in modern view like someone who left his wive to live with the lover but in the end decided to come back to his wive and left the lover… I read somewhere that when he demoted her from being queen, she never forgive him so I think after that she concentrated on Power, political power she was an intelligent women who was trying to be Powerful,but i think she also was very temperamental and in the end the most powerful weapon was the kings love, which she clearly had lost from when Choi suk bin came into the frame,
        Did she deserved to die for coursing the Queen… Of course no, she probably was a scapegoat of political, but you know who sacrifice her?? Yes it was the king, that choi suk bin told the king about is just a rumour, other state it was Inhyeon before to die, others that it was same Sukjong who found her, the King took this excuse to get rid of her, he was after all a brilliant politic man and i believe this also because when Jang hui bin was lead to execution, seeking revenge on the King, she even attacked her own son, crown prince, and wounded him badly, and that was not an statement of Noron but the own teacher and doctor of Crown prince, Sukjong was furious at this, Sukjong even forbid Crown prince to mention his mother (jang hui bin) on front of him, Do this sound like he loved her??

        Yes if you don’t like Dong yi thats fine, but Jang ok jung it is not realistic either, a fashion women in Joseon dynasty ?? mmh that doesn’t sound very realistic to me! There is a book named women in joseon dynasty you should read it, it is very good, at least Dong yi in the unreal parts, took their facts form historical accounts (investigador women, sword gang, actually existed).
        Cheers!

        • Again, as I stated although I see where you’re coming from, I don’t care about historical facts and don’t believe the King’s diaries weren’t tampered with. You can say it was secured, but to me no one will ever really know the “truth”.

          Now, it is written that the King secretly were placing poems on a tomb later revealed to be Lady Jang. The King’s corpse were buried next to Jang Hui Bin. In 1969, the tomb of InHyun was moved next to the King’s tomb at the burial site for Tourism in Korea. It may have been added to the novel, but this is a fact. And you’re still asking me if the King loved her? Of course, I still believed that he did. The King may have led her to her death, but like what samuelthom said below this entry, he might have felt that he was wrong to make that decision of getting Hui Bin killed and probably wanted to hide that fact from his son. Just like I said about evidence being tampered or getting rid of, you don’t think doctors and teachers can be bribed in some way or another? Like I said, I don’t believe fully what is written in history. Sorry to be redundant, but you obviously don’t get my point when you keep bringing up “historical facts”.

          Yes, I read about how evil and what Hui Bin did with her own child, but you can say especially in that time and era, she’d probably suffered a lot and didn’t want her son to live like her. She probably asked him to die with her or tried to kill him before dying herself. Our minds are different back in those times. Here we are in the 21st Century thinking that lady is crazy, but back then it might have been the appropriate and logical way of thinking.

          Let me make this clear. Everyone thinks I am saying Hui Bin was good and Suk-Bin is the evil one. I didn’t say I am sure any of that. I was just trying to open people’s mind up on how what is written in History (also King’s diaries) aren’t always true. Anything can be tampered with. Even if Hui Bin was really evil, I can understand why she is like that. Put yourself in her predicament, if you were to have everyone try and get rid of you, what would you do? Don’t fight back and don’t do anything because that’s what a good person do? There are so many times people can push your buttons to the limit. Fighting back is what makes us strong and being strong is intimidating to some people. All in all, I believed that no one was really good or really bad. They all have decisions to make in order to survive this political ordeal.

          And DUH! Jang Ok Jung is fictional based on a novel. I never said it wasn’t fictional. I am only disputing the fact you guys are trying to say it’s more accurate in what did happened in real life. It may have, but who really knows? I agree that Dong Yi follow the “historical facts” that are written in history more than Jang Ok Jung, but certainly, you cannot rule out that Dong Yi is more ACCURATE than Jang Ok Jung based on what is written in history. No one can rule that out except the King, Hui Bin, and Suk-Bin themselves for sure. They are the ones that know the truth, NOT ANYBODY ELSE, NOR YOU, OR ME.

          • emm but there is no need to get upset… we are just sharing don’t we? Now about king and Jang hui bin being buried together can you share the link to a RELIABLE source, I also want to read!! You said it was a fact.. so I guess it won’t be a problem for you to link us that information!

            Now we have here a problem if you don’t believe in the historical records of this “story” since this is a historical drama. but thats up to you.. you decided what to believe, if you want to believe she didn’t even die and went to live to china and king sukjong found and impostor to put him in his place to go with jang hui bin… Thats up to you.
            I totally get your point, you don’t believe in history, but if I want to make my point regarding to Historical characters I have to resource to history, or should I go to rumours? If I do that believe me Jang hui bin won’t stand a chance. Also i don’t just go and base my opinions in the annals of joseon and others, I tried to learn about the characters find the way of living of them, the costumes of the time,try to find patrons of behaving to see how would probably act the character in this or that situation in others words I tried to see the whole picture, I am not saying I am right but base in all of that I can have a better idea of the characters.

            Now I believe the origin of the discussion was if Dong Yi represented her accurately historically or not. You already told me that you agree with us.
            Now I am going to tried to stand my opinion without historical sources.. If i can. MY OPINION because I am entitled to it is that yes.. Dong Yi made a nice job portraying her, As incredible as may sound i did not found her in DY as evil as in other versions of her in other dramas, in Dong Yi she was doing politics, the way they did it at that time, yes she had to survived in a hostile place, if you watched the drama carefully you can see that she is debating between the good and bad decisions, actually in ep. 44? she decided to listen Choi suk bin but then her brother change her mind, he convinced her that the only way to save herself and her family, was getting rid of Choi suk bin and her prince she ended up making bad decisions that got her to death. She is indeed a human taking very hard decisions.
            In Jang Ok Jung she is completely a martyr, they justified all her bad deeds, because the poor jang ok jung was obligated to be bad because the bully (which did not even got to that stages presented in the drama, the king mother expelled out of the palace a soon she realized she was from soron, so who bully her out) in the end she sacrificed herself in order to save her love, yeah very romantic,, but as I said this is not jang hui bin, I believe in real life she fight to the king for her live, they showed the kings deep love for her.. emm I know you don’t believe in history, but this king went against many to get her kill some courtiers and her followers sent petitions to the king asking forgiveness for her he in return kill all that opposed… And a lot of facts more (that you don’t believe, because you don’t believe in history I know) any way for me Jang ok jung did not do a good job representing her fairly. She was known to be a strong women, but they made her into a petty martyr. but people love those as other girl say sappy love stories. Once again as I said before I don’t think she was completely evil, but she was not the poor nice girl they portrayed in Jang ok jung.

      • Babypeps, I don’t think you read my comment fully. I did not state that “Dong Yi” was an accurate portrayal of history as the main character is a woman that history has little records of due to her low birth rank in that time period; had she not been a royal concubine, I doubt we would even have the little information of her that we have now. The writers had to take what history they had and make up stuff to fill in the large blanks of Choi Suk-bin’s life if they wanted to do a drama that focused on who was surely one of Jang Hui-bin’s great rivals (besides Queen Inhyeon)

        What I did say was that I thought the Jang Hui-bin of “Dong Yi” was probably a more accurate portrayal of the real woman in history then the “Jang Ok Jung Live In Love”. While you may have doubts of history, I have a little more faith in it to believe that she wasn’t the victim that “Jang Ok Jung In Love” portrayed her to be. Ignore what you disliked about “Dong Yi” and consider the portrayal of Jang Hui-bin in it. She loved King Sukjong in that story, yet she also had ambitions to raise up as high as she could go in Joseon society. She starts off a woman with principles going for her dreams to one who makes the decision to stop letting other people do the dirty work and get her hands dirty too, to achieve said dream.

        I’m willing to speculate that she wasn’t quite the evil villain that history has her as, however I do not think she’s completely the innocent and wronged party that “Jang Ok Jung Live In Love” would have people believe. As I said before she was a woman perhaps had affection and even love for the King, but also one who had ambitions who let those ambitions and the people around her push down a path that she might not have otherwise embraced.

        Also Jang Hui-Bin is not buried next to King Sukjong and Queen Inhyeon. In a royal burial ground there are 3 kinds of tombs: Neung, which refers to the tomb of a king or queen; Won, which refers to the tomb of the Crown Prince, Crown Princess, royal concubines and certain other members of the royal family; and Myo which is for tombs of less important people of the royal family. The site of Jang Hui-bin’s resting place is called Daebinmyo, a myo tomb and King Sukjong and Queen Inhyeon’s resting place(also Queen Inwon but she is buried on a nearby hill of this area of the royal burial grounds) is Myeongneung.

        Jang Hui-bin while buried in the same royal burial ground (Seooreung) is not near King Sukjong. Actually when she first died, she was not even buried in a royal burial grounds because she died under shameful circumstances. They buried her in the middle of nowhere, but she was moved in 1969 because the government wished to put a road through her old resting place. I guess they decided to add her Seooreung because King Sukjong is buried in that burial ground and it makes sense to bury her in the same royal cemetery as the man she was the ‘wife’ to. Besides they couldn’t just stick her any old place, because despite why she died, she still gave birth to a king. In any case, as I said she has a myo tomb which means she is not buried next to King Sukjong and even if she had been buried as a Won tomb, she would not have been next to him because only a Queen is allowed to be buried next to a King. While she was a Queen at one point, she didn’t die as one.

        Anyways while I disagree with your opinion about Jang Hui-bin, I can respect the thought and research you put into it, which is quite a deal more then I can say about other people I’ve come across who support her.

        • Eternal dark
          Very well say it is a Very nice explanation! I love when people is able to provide such nice information. I did not know about the ranks on the tombs and I was looking for information in internet, but was not able to find anything concise.
          I also have a question for you that I read in another site, maybe you can help me with that… when jang hui bin died… the king had to keep period mourning? and what about Choi suk bin?

          Again Thanks

          • Thank you SandyG. You can find the information that I mentioned on the tombs on this site, if you want to look around for more information: http://www.exploringkorea.com/royal-tombs-south-korea/

            As to whether King Sukjong had a mourning period for Jang Hui-bin or Choi Suki-bin, I do not know that answer. However, a few weeks I placed at a request at my library for “Joseon Royal Court Culture: Ceremonial and Daily Life”. I’m fairly certain it will have an answer to that question, so once I have it and find an answer, I shall get back to you on it.

  3. Babypebs
    First off I want to say we think so alike when it comes to the drama Dong Yi. I really disliked it. Maybe it was because I watched Jang Ok Jung Live in Love first. But I didn’t like it. The two characters that most of the time made me mad, because they didn’t seem portrayed right was the King and Queen Inhyeon. The king was know in history to have the best royal bodyguards. So why did they make him look weak in Dong Yi. In JOJ they made him into what I would imagine to be the real King. The Queen said to be jealous and discriminated against people of the opposite party. Like when this one girl( I think she was consort too) got kicked out ,she was very rude and mean to her. And when the great Queen Jangnyeol died she celebrated her birthday.
    In response to @ Darksongstress statement about Hui Bin’s son having more then 4 years to clear her name, that would be right. The King forbid even mentioning her name, so the son wouldn’t have had a chance to. This could go in either direction. This could be the king’s way of protecting his son from finding out that he was wrong or he was very disgusted with her that he didn’t want to remember . Or he didn’t want his son to follow in the steps of deposed Yoon’s son. I read somewhere that he was investigating in the last months before his death.
    The thing you said about Hui Bin dying in the King’s arms is currently unknown fact, probably fiction. But he did however wait a year after her death to bring the new queen. I don’t know if considered this sweet or not but to me this shows he didn’t neglect her and he really loved had cared for her. There were rumors that he was secretly thinking of where to bury her. It was said that he left poems to some tomb which was discovered to be Hui Bin’s tomb and that he was buried next to this tomb. The tomb stones were then moved to their current spot except Queen Inhyeon was places on the same hill as the King and on the other Queen Inwon. But she was buried near by. But it said their bodies are still next to each other.
    Jang Ok Jung isn’t there to make you be on Hui Bin’s side . I don’t think it to tell watchers that Hui Bin was good everyone else was bad. But to challenge what everyone believe about her and understand what she went through that made her who she was. And if they won’t listen because they are narrow minded and listen to what they watched before or what they read that is their loss.
    I think she was a strong character , that was wrongly framed.
    But who know.
    She could have been bad , like how everyone said she was. Please don’t think I neglected that idea. I just wish people would be more open minded with this character.

    • @samuelthom

      I never said that Hui Bin was absolutely good and the others are evil. I kept an open mind in both Dong Yi and Jang Ok Jung. I believe Hui Bin might have became evil but for struggling to survive in their political wars. I just think that both parties were not only good or bad, but they had no choice but to make bad decisions to fight and survive. I am on the same page as you as she is a strong character and figure, whereas why I believed that was why everyone would do anything to get rid of her because they are intimidated by her.

      Thanks for touching up bases for me. I am not quite on top of the historical facts, but to me those “facts” or anything written in history MAY NOT be the truth so that’s why I still am against those who post and say that this movie is following the king’s diaries or sources so on and son son. I completely agree with you just as you put it, Jang Ok Jung both novel and movie challenged us to a new perspective.

    • the king waiting one year to get married again, was not because Jang hui bin but because Inhyeon… Remember they died the same year,by tradition he had to wait for the period mourning to his lawful wife who was the queen Inhyeon, the king leaving poems on her tomb its totally ficcion no records of it in any part of history, this comes from the book 2008 that i had read myself. Jang hui bin was not buried together with king… he was and is actually buried with Inhyeon and Inwon…Annals of Joseon states that in 1717 Jang hui bin tomb was still unfinished and with not technique…! The facts are there… but what people decide to believe its different. I don’t consider myself close mind, but you can not change history.
      P.S.I believe King sukjong couldn’t actually fight… the first kings, until 1468 or so were more warriors and outgoing they would go for hunting and spend time outdoors, but when they established confucius state they were required to learn a lot of philosophy so the kings had to do a lot of study and did not have that much free time, they were more intellectuals. and had to study a lot since they became crown prince, the king had to be always with guards and at least two historiographer had to be with him all the time, they were in charge of writing down all the activities of the king in daily basis…

      • Me again sorry i do not how to edit my comments … I also wanted to say that It was Inhyeon who allowed Jang ok Jung to come back in 1686 remember she had been kick out for the Kings mother, who was the head of the royal house, when she died, Inhyeon allow Jang hui bin to come back, (this must have been a request of the King) but without the consent of Inhyeon that would have been impossible,but i guess Inhyeon saw something in jang hui bin that did concern her to the point of bring in other concubine… Consort Yeong of the Kim clan (the one that samuelthom is referring to) she was actually brought in for Inhyeon in 1686 (i believe Inhyeon was very concern of the influence Jang hui bin had over the king ) when jang hui bin became queen in 1688 she kick her out of the palace… Inhyeon was not there anymore. But she came back when in 1694 The king demoted Jang hui bin and Inhyeon was made Queen again, Inhyeon brought her back.. Yeong Kim and Inwon actually protected Yeongjo, thats the only reason he could survived. But I agree that Inhyeon and the king are not well represented in Dong yi I dont think Inhyeon was that layback, I think she was a strong women, her family and supporters were killed to protected her, she lost the love of her husband, she was wronged and remain as a sinner out of the palace, still she was able to endure..the king I don’t think he was very nice and loving I think he used his women to gain political power, when he was done, or noted they were very strong political he discard them..
        Just my opinion

      • Yes they did die around the same time but he waited starting from her death not the queen. I didn’t says he did, I read it somewhere and I just wanted to throw you there. About them not being buried together no one knows. Because there were rumors that the King buried her somewhere different then where everyone thought. Again I read this somewhere. However the king was not orignally buried with Queen Inhyeon and inwon. I think that’s where the whole idea of him being buried with hui bin comes from. And that next to his tomb was another tomb with poems. I read this also . The writer said this idea has not been prove wrong yet. So you can believe what you want on this mater.
        If you read the history of sukjong you would know that he had strong royal guards, from all of the kings of joseon.
        I didn’t mean he was a fighter, but someone with lots of power. I know what the Annals of joseon dynasty is. That has not been translated into English yet. They had recently anounced that they would start next year. They said it would take at least 20 years. This would be from the first king of joseon to the last. As mentioned it’s very detailed so it should take very long and I think they are doing it on donated money.
        If you thought I called you closed minded, I am sorry. However I would like to point out that hui Bin wasn’t born to the best of families . She had many struggles. She was then thrown in to a bigger problem when she became the kings women. Treated bad from left and right. I dout Dong Yi went through what half hui bin did. This doesn’t make her actions excuseable though.
        This is my toughts but I would like to throw it out. I think maybe he didn’t love any of his wives . Because it was said that he was a great politican. And before he changed the controlling party what does he do he get a wife from the oposite party. Or his love doesn’t last long since he ditched the kind dong yi and got four other wives.
        I agree I also feel bad for Inhyeon . She really was a tragic character. But this doesn’t mean she was that poor weak queen.
        Babypeds
        I totally agree with what you said about history . If people are capable of cheating on a test and cruel things. Who would stop them from writing history to favor one party over another. They could be bribes to write one way . Bribery seems to be common back then anyway. Also the even king couldn’t read the annals to see it was written right. So I don’t think there is a 100% way to know if whats written was the truth.
        Also there is a chance that she was a political victim. So many people hate her. This could be the fabrication of the western party. They could have thought they must get rid of her then or it bye bye to their power. I mean this woman is about to get back her title. And if she gets her that who is to say she couldn’t get the favor of the king once more..
        Again this is my thought. I just want to throw my thoughts out there.Blieve what you want to it your choose.

        • Sorry I forgot to mention another thing that I didn’t in my last comment. It was said that Queen Inyeon had jealousy issues. In fact I think that was why she got deposed of in the first place. She brought the Consort Yeong of the Kim clan (I believe was her name) to steal away the king from Hui Bin. Actually now that I remember she actually in real life told the king to kick out Hui Bin because she was a monster he killed in his pervious life and that she is here to get revenge. Also that she will not give him any children. This was actually really what he used to depose her. But when Hui Bin gave birth to a son she got more mad and refused to adopt him. That is why he disposed her. Because jealousy was one of the seven sins of a wife.
          Also the one I was referring to was not Consort Yeong of the Kim clan of course because she was on a Inyeon side, but I believe it was Royal Noble Consort Myeong of the Miryang Park clan.
          Also I wanted to add a little info that I don’t know if you guys know. Jang Hui Bin was made suk won without being pregnant. Then raised to 2 level without being pregnant. And then Hui Bin after the birth of her son and eventually queen. (It took her two years to go from suk won to queen) Dong Yi was pregnant then she was made suk won. But the baby died. She was elevated when she gave birth to Prince Yeoning .And then eventually bin. (It took her a total of 6 years to get). Now after Dong Yi king Sukjong married Royal Noble Consort Myeong of the Miryang Park clan. She was made into suk won with out being pregnant. Then she was elevated to Suk ui when she gave birth to son . Then eventually bin.(It took her 4 years to be a bin.This took place a few years before hui bin/ inyeons death.) Also her son was said to be his favorite son. In fact it was said when Sukjong adopted a child to be his son’s child. What do you guys think of this? Don’t you think a lot of people have a motive to frame Hui Bin, including Dong Yi? It just doesn’t make sense that she would pray for the death of a person that is dying at the expense of her life.
          Over all about Jang Ok Jung live in love I think they did a great job with giving us doubts about the “good” characters. It shed a new light on Dong Yi from my perspective. Getting rid of Hui Bin meant her survival, her sons survival, keeping power in the western party and also the deposing hui bin’s son and getting Dong Yi’s son to be king. Who is to say she didn’t think she could have it all if she could only get rid of Hu Bin? I know “Suk ” means pure but she got that title a few years earlier, who is to say that she didn’t change or feel the obligation to do just this once something that she normally wouldn’t? I mean she had been hating on Hui Bin for a while, even when she was queen she had been against her. Who is to say she didn’t think that Hui Bin would take revenge once she gets her title back. And the worst part is Queen Inyeon would no longer be able to stop her.
          Sorry I went on a tangent. I just wanted to share a few thing that I was thinking and a few more that I read. I want to clarify that I am not taking Dong Yi or Jang Ok Jung live in love as the real truth. If it seems that I am on Hui Bin’s side, I am not. It’s just that many people always end up being on Dong Yi’s side and bash Hui Bin that make me sad for her and I end up trying to defend her. I believe they were all tragic characters in a tragically life.

          • @ Maria Mercedes

            I see why you mistook me for being upset so I apologize for sounding rude using the word “duh!” in my previous comment. I am so use to using that word with my friends and forget that it is a bad habit and manner. However, I was not upset, but was rather debating on this matter. Instead, I felt you were the upset one. So please do not take anything too personal.

            The origin of this discussion was not whether Dong Yi is more accurate in “historical facts” than Jang Ok Jung, but rather, which is more accurate as in truth. This is the reason why I disputed the “historical facts” that you shared with me. Please go back to Darksongstress section above and reread. I see it more of a misunderstanding from you because you thought that was the original problem, which was also why I reassured you that I agree with you that Dong Yi is more accurate in historical facts than JOJ but not the truth. Darksongstress stated that Hui Bin was not portrayed accurately in JOJ, but did not say that Hui Bin was not portrayed accurately historically in JOJ. Darksongstress left out historically or words as in historical facts to make me believe that she was using accurately as in the truth. Get my drift?

            You already know that I don’t believe fully or 100% in anything written in History. Not just Korean History, but all over-the-world History. So I don’t understand why you would still bring them up to me. I never said you weren’t entitled to an opinion. I am also entitled to my opinion and made it clear that I stand my ground about my beliefs so I felt it is unnecessary for you to remind me.

            I never said I believed everything that happened in Jang Ok Jung really happened. I was only saying that it MIGHT have happened and I am able to see Hui Bin in a different light. No one said that Hui Bin didn’t really die and ran away to China with the King.There is no need for you to sound condescending if you are not upset.

            You said you studied the characters and their way of living to get a better understanding of them. Okay, good for you, but that doesn’t change the truth. FYI, I did not watched the whole Dong Yi because I was irritated of the character or the bad acting from the actress. I never said Jang Ok Jung was realistic either. Of course, it was unrealistic, it’s a drama. It will be very rare for someone to experience that kind of true love. I simply love Jang Ok Jung for the drama, the sappy love story you would say. I didn’t love it because I thought it was realistic.

            As for the link about King Sukjung poems and burial information, itt is found on this Vietnamese Wikipedia link: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hy_t%E1%BA%A7n_h%E1%BB%8D_Tr%C6%B0%C6%A1ng
            It is written in Vietnamese and I am not Vietnamese so I couldn’t translate it myself. As Samuelthom said, I read somewhere where they translated it. I think it was from a blog found here at this link:
            http://forums.soompi.com/discussion/comment/26097775
            Now, if you would like to share the link to the sources of the historical facts you’ve mentioned, please don’t hesitate. Although, I don’t believe everything fully written in History, I know others that does would love to read it.

            Again, I apologize for offending you. May we all be in peace.

            @ Samuelthom

            Well said! Your thoughts and mine are really alike! Just like you, I was only disputing the fact that they said Hui Bin in Dong Yi is portrayed better than Jang Ok Jung. Historically, yes, but in truth, no. No one will ever really know. I am not on Hui Bin’s side either, but just like you said, I don’t like people being so firm about someone they read off a reliable source or heard rumors about when they never directly knew that person. You can say, I feel for Hui Bin because I feel like her in some aspect. When you are beautiful, it is tragic sometimes. People just hate you for no apparent reason and suddenly, you’re a threat to them. Either you are a threat to stealing their man or your own man gets jealous and suspects you’re cheating on him. But don’t get me wrong, this is not about my personal problem relating to hers. I just don’t like people spreading so called facts when they don’t know for sure.

          • Oh boy this will be little long… Ok Here I go :D

            First I want to correct about your previous comment that you had read in other place, about Sukjong waiting one year to married Inwon because Jang hui bin,, here the dates …September 16, 1701 Inhyeon Died .. November 09, 1701 Jang hui bin Died… Octuber 03 1702 Sukjong marries Inwon so clearly Sukjong waited for period mourning for Inhyeon not for Jang hui bin.

            Jang hui bin was a daughter of a middle class family from a long line of translators who because their job (translate from Chinese to hangul and vise verse) could establish relationship with Chinese mercantile, and became themselves very rich, the fact that they had connections with soron and was accepted to be lady in wanting of queen dowager is the prove, hadn’t she well educated she would have been rejected, the standards for those jobs were so high that the way lady and eunuchs were chosen was different than the rest of the palace. also jang hui bin brother was an active member of that faction (politics were allow just for nobles) so they had the money but no the pedigree. The fact that she became Queen is another probe, under the strict class division system, a lowly commoner wouldn’t be able to become Queen (as Dong YI case who was originally a mussory I don’t think she was ever offer the queen sit, but rather because her lowly origin she was not able to ) also a daughter of a concubine would not be able to, so Jang hui bin was from a middle class family, the king did not made a legislation to allow lower ranks to became Queens, that would have shaken the nation which base their rules in confucian teachings.
            The bully you watched in Jang ok Jung did not take that stage, (yeah maybe she suffer but not at those levels ) first of all as soon as the kings mother found out she was from soron she expelled her out of the palace where jang ok jung remain until 1686 when Inhyeon brought her back. And the most terrible Inhyeon did was to say to the king that Jang ok jung was infertile. All the things that you watched at the drama JOJ the mother of king was doing to her, were actually the stories that Jang hui bin left behind.(which are just rumours)

            Yes annals state Inhyeon was jealous of Jang hui bin, and the king used this to kick her out… but I think more than a women jealousy she was worry of her own position don’t forget it was Inhyeon who brought JOJ back to palace, when Queen mother died and gave her the title of sukwon she also brought another concubine also,(whatever the reason but the purpose was the sameXD) I wonder about jang hui bin behavior that Inhyeon was so worry about her influence over the king, jang hui bin later proved to be a real threat to her, as she got her and Consort Yeong of the kim clan kicked out of the palace, and not just that but also her supporters and father death. Inhyeon was doing what she could to protect her position, I agree she was not the weak poor queen some dramas represent her, she even refuse to follow the kings order to adopt Jang hui bin baby, as the implications of this were high, the king wanted to give him the crown prince title, it means even if she had a boy later (remember she was just 21 years old Jang hui bin was 29 at the time. The king was 27) her son would not be considered crown prince. That would put her position and her future son on risk, so she was doing what she could to protect herself. Yes she said those things but Jang hui bin also did her part and used her own influence over the king, in the end she got her demoted and exiled didn’t she?

            Consort Myoeng of the Miryang Park did not married sukjong until 1698. She was the daughter of a Noble. And she was never kicked out, she died in 1703 of sickness, so you could not possibly refer to her, I think you were referring to Yeong of the Kim clan, as I say she was kicked out of the palace for Jang hui bin when she became queen in 1688. There was another concubine at that time who died in 1688 when Jang ok jung became queen. (very suspicious) I think maybe just causality but that gave you doubs..

            Now you are right, Jang hui bin did not was pregnant when she became sukwon, but she had been the kings lover long enough, since before mother queen died, we don’t know exactly how long but some years, also when she was given the rank of suk-ui and gwi-in and hui bin she was not pregnant because she had given birth already the crown prince, in those ranks systems a sukwon who give birth to a crown prince, becomes automatically a bin without having to go through all the others steps. Also all those ranks were given to her in 1688, remember the king wanted to make her son crown prince? But it was impossible because she was a concubine, by law just the older son of the King and Queen was able to became crown prince the King asked Inhyeon The queen to adopt that baby but she refused to adopted him (I already explained the implications of that) so the king got angry and demoted her and exiled her(With whatever excused he could) and upgrade Jang hui bin rank to gwi-in and Bin and then queen in few months because all the deal was to make his son crown prince, so to do this he has to make his mother jang hui bin, the Queen.
            .
            Now Dong Yi, don’t forget Dong Yi was a mussori in the palace, the lowest rank, in a social system ruled by Class division, in which a slave would be slave forever and their sons and so on, this system was so strict that the possibilities for Choi suk bin to became a Bin was 1 in a million, Historiographer refer to her as the only case on its type in all the Joseon Dinasty. The fact that she became Bin is amazing just in itself, so because her lowly status, it would be very difficult for her to get ranks, she had to prove her value (giving birth kids), and remember who was the Queen when she became consort, I don’t think Jang hui bin, who also is famous for her jealousy would give her those titles so easily. In fact Yeongjo’s life was threaten that much because he was the son of a lowly mussori. But remember Sukjong just had 1 son with jang hui bin maybe 2 (second in 1692 but is disputed) after that it looks like he did not touch her anymore (I don’t really know just guessing XD) Meanwhile had 3 sons with Choi suk bin and 1 is in dispute (probably 4 kids with her, and this with other 6 wives in the palace, it looks to me she was the often chosen) and one with myong Park (he had also 2 girls with his first queen,)so Choi suk bin remain the one that had the most babies with the King.

            Myong Park was a noble daughter, for default she would had been given ranks immediately, remember we are talking about the way of living and thinking of a society ruled by class division, the family background was very important. Yes her son is said to be his favorite, but sukjong adopting a child to be his son’s child it is actually not as special, maybe for us, but for those times it was a customary practice, between the royalty this to ensure the lineage. …

            Yes I believe a lot of people including Dong Yi had good reasons to want to get rid of Jang hui bin, there is a rumor that states that the last baby that Dong yi lost was actually Jang hui bin doing, it is said she poisoned her. (just a rumor)About her coursing Inhyeon It is written she was found guilty after investigation (with torture) but it is a fact that an altar was found in her chambers, and when questioning her ladies in wanting they pointing the place where they had hide dead animals and effigies , also they confessed that the Queen had order them to throw arrows to the effigy of the queen three times at day. It took around two months of investigating from when Inhyeon died to when Jang hui bin died. During that time the king himself questioned her, and he was the one who kept refusing her explanations, two months it’s a lot of time to cool down, but seeing how the king wanted to kill her that much, it makes me think ether she was definitely guilty or the King really wanted to get rid of her using this as excuse, in other words the king did not wanted to give her the Queen title, remember he favored Noron, and not soron, also remember the way he had acted in the past when things didn’t go his way in 1688 he demoted and exiled Inhyeon (who was the queen supported by the nation and the nobles, he couldn’t care less) and cause a purge to Noron, then in 1694 when he favored Choi suk bin he brought back Inhyeon and purge Soron, he was not afraid to cause purges when he wanted something, if he wanted to save her I am sure he would not hesitate to save her and cause a purge to Noron, but he didn’t when her supporters petitioned to forgive her because the crown prince (they had a very valid argument) what the king did? There!! if he wanted to save her, other excuse, (not that he need one anyway) but no, he killed them (1700 people) and the rest he did not kill, he exiled them. So that’s other reasons is why I believe that if she was a Political scapegoat, the one who sacrificed her was not Noron or Suk bin or Inhyeon but the same King.

            Also there are three possibilities of how the king found out about Jang hui bin coursing inhyeon 1)the king himself discover her, if he loves her so much why did he did all that noise and make public what Jang hui bin had done, he could have just keep quiet but no he made lots of noise 2) annals of Joseon states “Choi suk bin, with her usual grace, gives tribute to Queen (inhyeon)and weeps, for the one that couldn’t win the heart of the king and secretly keeps the king informed” Because this words it’s the rumour that Choi suk bin informed about Jang hui bin coursing Inhyeon, although this could more likely refers to the last words of the Queen, but if you noted it say secretly informs, IF it was choi suk bin who inform the King she did not make a fuss she did it in secret, But in this case also the king make a fuss of this, yes this was his Excuse. So I would say than more that Choi suk bin wanted her to die, I believe it was the Kings way to protect his family and his nation ( kings way of thinking allowing Noron to overpower the government), I don’t think Jang hui bin would be very lenient with king other concubines and sons, but yes the doubt is always there, Yes Jang Ok Jung as I stated before gave us the doubt.. but the problem is that once you analyzed the History, customs and life of other characters the theory they present fall down, They had a good idea but didn’t know how to developed, I gave her a chance I watched the drama, but for me was a disappointment, believe me I have nothing against her as I said before I don’t think she was totally evil but she was not a martyr, all of them are very tragic characters, but I wonder what would had happen if the king didn’t kill her… Anyway it is nice to present ideas and share information isn’t it?..
            Cheers

          • Again, all of your opinions are based on “historical facts” that are recorded. It’s getting pretty ridiculous since you still question the King’s love for Hui Bin. I didn’t say I was for certain that he really loved her, but you are so certain that he didn’t love her, based on your investigation and digging into your “sources”. You are so adamant about the King really wanting to kill Hui Bin, which are still based on the annals written. Then again, you are entitled to your opinion and I just want readers to know that this is only an OPINION. Readers should keep an open mind and not believe everything that are seen in front of their eyes.

            And as for the links I’ve given you, there was one that was Wikipedia and the other one was just a blog I wanted to show you where someone translated it. That blog wasn’t meant to give you reliable source, but an example of where I thought Samuelthom and myself have read. If you get a Vietnamese translator for the Wikipedia, then let us know.

            But, thank you for all the links and information that may be useful for others like you who based “truth” on “historical facts”. For others like me, it’s completely useless. Once again, thank you for sharing your thoughts and links.

            Kind Regards…

  4. Baby pess

    I am sorry I think there was a misunderstanding with my comment, it was not intended for you, I thought we were already done with our talk.

    the links, it was you who asked for them, as I said I don’t mind to share my thoughts and where I base my opinions, about the links you post I did not intend offend you I know is where you read about the rumours of sukjong writing poems, but you stated before it was a fact (although you don’t believe in history), so I was curious, since I had never come across to this, but it was just a rumor,that but the way reminded me a lot to how the chinese emperor Xuanzong of Tang grieve for Yang Guifei his concubine, as I just say I don’t trust pages (including wikipedia that can be edited for anyone) if its not related to “reliable sources” or “unbiased sources”
    I know, I know You don’t believe in historical sources etc etc. But I DO…Although not 100% yes history can be biased altered etc, but great part of it I BELIEVE can be trusted. As for MY COMMENT… Yes IS JUST MY OPINION, I never said that was the TRUTH.. as I stated in my comment this is what I think, once again we are Just sharing OUR THOUGHTS and yes people should have an open mind about this, there are a lot of alternatives but FOR ME this is the one that make more sense right know, who knows maybe later I found something else that changes my mind, you never know.

    as for ME yes I BELIEVE the king although Love her in the beggining did not love Jang hui bin forever and yes I Believe he was PROBaBLY the one that caused her death, (well he sentenced her to death), THATS JUST MY OPINION, based on the HISTORICALS FACTS THAT I NOW but thats not the FACT ITSELF and of course it not a PROVEN TRUTH…

    although for you history is useless for me and many others is very useful, actually one of my favorites activities its the investigation of characters of history. not hard feelings, hope you have a great weekend!!. :D

    • Maria Merceded

      My sincere apologies. I was curious because I thought we were done with the conversation too. Well, thanks for sharing and clearing that for me.

      Peace! Hope your investigation bring you happiness!

    • @ Maria Mercedes

      I would like to add that if you read it carefully, I wanted you to post the links for others who believed the historical facts. It was never intended for me to read them myself as you already know that I don’t believe them. So this is just to clear that misunderstanding that you and SandyG think that I’m contradicting myself.

      • Baby pess

        Don’t worry, after all we are passionate people who love good discussion, :D it was a very nice talk I apologized also for my last comment,but I relieve you understood what I was referring to when I said 1) it was not intended for you 2)that I thought we were done talking It was actually my mistake I put the comment with lots of historical facts under your last comment (without realizing it) which make it look that i was replaying to you, So I thought you were upset because I was being stubborn with my facts, so I was actually apologizing (as You see I am not very good at it XD).

        But I wanted to be clear that this is just and solely my ideas and yes as you said we must to be open to all kind of ideas (that’s why the capital letters,).capital letter can be taken as rude or yelling so didn’t know how I would sound but since you were using them I though it wouldn’t be wrong in my comment. Because I wanted to emphasize those things Just until samuelth pointed out I realized how rude my comment sound,:( good thing you did understand it.

        About the links yes I did understand and I never thought you were going to use them for yourself, as you were clear that it was for others, but Samuelthom in her/his comment accused me of sending you those links to try to change your mind and don’t letting you to express your ideas, which is not. That’s why I clarify that the links were at your request, it was not like “I am sending links to baby pess so she/he will change her mind” Of course no. Also I don’t see anything wrong with sharing information, as you said even if yourself doesn’t like it others will.

        That’s the way I had come to know those books and personally I came into blogs to see If I can find new information between the others.

        Anyway I am relieved you did understand the comment and Me too I will be more careful on How I write my comments for last I think I should had written something like>>>Baby pess you were very clear with your position and My comment contain a lot of historical facts but it was not intended for you but for samuelth, who had brought some historical facts to the conversation… Anyway thank you very much for your time and for challenging me with your ideas, its been a pleasure to share with you guys.

  5. Maria Mercedes
    Babypeds can believe whatever makes sense to (her or him. Babypeds doesn’t have to believe what others write. As you know he/she doesn’t believe in what others write so sending a links probably doesn’t make a difference. So unless you can prove they weren’t buried together or there was no poems other than simply showing what others wrote I don’t think you can argue against it because truly then become matter of what you want to believe just like how you believe Sukjong didn’t love Hui Bin at the end.
    We are ALL sharing our thoughts regarding this story so anyone who wants to comment or has a suggestion can at anytime write. The way you Maria Mercedes started your comment seems as if Babypeds can’t comment or anything.
    Again if you did not understand what I wrote earlier on. I am not arguing the King loved Hui Bin until the end. I even suggested his love doesn’t last long because obviously he didn’t stop at Dong Yi.
    I understand she was the mother of the crowned prince. So What? So are you saying if he loved her so much that he should forgive her for her sin? She did a sin against the state, as a man he might have forgiven her, but as a king he has to do things without putting his feelings into it. He might have made a big deal about it, because he was angry which clearly he has the right to be . He did this as the king of a nation. Now this doesn’t mean she was for sure guilty of murder. Even though most of the evidence point at her this doesn’t mean she was guilty. This could have been one of those 1% chance of being proven innocent cases. I mean who is to say that he didn’t later prove her innocent? But covered it up since an innocent life was lost already and he didn’t want to make a fuse .Then be dethroned or worst have his son walk in the path of the dethroned kings. I don’t know if you watched I hear your voice but the main character once said. Something about a puzzle of a lion where before setting the last piece of the puzzle one just thinks that oh this lion just killed an animal. When that tiny space can be filled with a ball which clearly proves him innocent. So don’t hate on Jang Hui Bin because really was a strong person.
    Also the annals states that Queen Inyeon was kicked out because of her jealousy. And Consort Kim should also leave after all Queen Inyeon was the one that brought her so she should leave with her. I mean if she takes Hui Bin’s son once the king dies she(Hui Bin) would traditionally kicked out. I don’t think as a queen who has not yet bore an heir she should not refuse the child. If she truly cared about her position over her womanly feelings she shouldn’t have refused.
    Dong Yi was from the lowest class. I know. But Hui Bin was from the middle class and a Soron friction member this makes it hard on her to become a consort just like Dong Yi. Also who knows what she faced with the Queen Mother. So if Hui Bin didn’t have to be pregnant , but needed only the love of the king to be consort why didn’t it work for Dong Yi? Even if Dong Yi was lower class than Hui Bin remember the nobles looked down on everyone even if you have money. The cast system was tight so of it was 1 in a billion for Dong Yi than it was 1 in a million for Hui Bin which is still small chance for her. Also Dong Yi was on the side of the queen which means she could have gotten more respect in front of everyone unlike Hui Bin who was alone.
    You know when Maria Mercedes mentioned that Choi Suk Bin kept the king informed I immediately thought of the evil concubine from Cruel Palace. Who knows what if she poisoned his mind and make him determined to kill Hui Bin.
    I have nothing against Choi Suk Bin. I don’t think she was a saint like she was so often said to be. But she made her son a good king. Which is a very admirable thing she has done.
    I think it is safe to say Dong Yi and Jang ok Jung live in love both made points that as watchers we should take into account when we try to understand these characters. So whether you believe in history or not you are entitled to believe however you want. We will never come to an agreement when it comes to some thing of this sort because ultimately we are arguing about their motives , thoughts, thing that were done in secret and if what history says was true or not. So lets leave with one understanding there is no a 100% in this story so as long we can recognize the basic elements of this story we can believe whatever we see fit .
    Have a Good Day. # thiswassuchalongconversation!
    Keep Calm and love Joseon Dynasty

    • samuel thom I see why you think i was rejecting babypass comments or forbidding her to express her thoughts but I never said she couldn’t give comments or express herself I actually agree with many of the things you both say although not everything, I love to talk about history so I get very into it and sometimes I do not realize that I come out as sassy and some people ended up offended.

      About my post “”"I am sorry I think there was a misunderstanding with my comment, it was not intended for you, I thought we were already done with our talk.”"” It was actually an apologize.

      maybe you didn’t read all the comments before this, and rushed to make a judgment and suggested i was sending links to try to change her mind .. (See thats why is good to have as much references as you can of an event) in one of those comments, after post information that I asked her to post… she say to me to “”"Now, if you would like to share the link to the sources of the historical facts you’ve mentioned, please don’t hesitate”"”

      It looks to me she wanted a probe of what i was saying, which I think is just right, you should be able to probe what you stand for. so I post some of the links related to the information I ve mention in other comment
      and then answer your post samuel thom because you asked . “”"What do you guys think of this? Don’t you think a lot of people have a motive to frame Hui Bin, including Dong Yi?”"”"

      I did not realized that my response was under babypes comment… which with whom I had already said my goodbyes, baby pes had said before that post “”"”Again, I apologize for offending you. May we all be in peace.”"” so my understanding was that we were done talking, , but then after i post my last comment to you… she wrote one more time “”Again, all of your opinions are based on “historical facts” that are recorded. It’s getting pretty ridiculous since you still etc.” and then in the end she said about the links she requested to me to be send “” thank you for all the links and information that may be useful for others like you who based “truth” on “historical facts”. For others like me, it’s completely useless”"” It looks to me she was upset and suggest I was forcing her to believe in my opinions and sending her links to try to change her mind which is not, So when I said “”Sorry it was a misunderstand” i actually was apologizing. but I wanted also to make clear that i was not forcing her and those were just my thoughts, so thats why I wrote in capital, she does the same thing in her posts so i though it was ok for me hahahah XD (its rude I know )
      .
      But if i had offend you with my apologize, I apologize for it, again. don’t take comments to personal ok? as you said we all are expressing our thoughts .. and as baby pes said “May we all be in peace”

      • @ Maria

        Oh and one more thing before I say my real goodbye, I didn’t mean to write in capitals to be rude. I learned that in one of my classes that when words or sentences are in capitals, they are meant to be read as important. I didn’t know it was rude so I do apologize about that too. I was not upset about the links when I said it was useless. I’m sorry for using these words. It was really an “at the moment” description that fits best for me, but I didn’t intentionally put them down. This experience will make me more careful in using my words. Thank you for putting up with it.

        @ Samuelthom

        I don’t know why I replied to you and the post is replying to SandyG or Maria instead. But please feel free to scroll through and look for my comments to you. After all, it was a pleasure finding someone sharing so many similar thoughts such as mine. Thank you so much! Hopefully, we can have more conversations in the future!

        I think the greatest problem we all had was not the topic itself, but the misunderstandings and interpretation of each posts. When it was cleared, we all realized that we have a lot of common interest in the “truth” of these dramas and become more curious than ever. You guys have been great! =)

      • Samuel thom
        One more thing before I leave I wanted to say that I liked your defence,well said! I may not agree with some the things you brought up… But I like the way you exposed your case. its curious the different perspectives we have,( since I started to watch cruel palace the evil concubine always bring to my head Jang hui bin trying to kick inhyeon out of the palace). I really liked the illustration of the puzzle, and no I don’t hate her, I have no reason, after all she has done nothing to me for me to hate her :D She is just very interesting to study. I Believe that she is like the asian Ana Boleyn

        Now my real goodbye… Have a nice day!:D

        • Sorry this might be late but some of the comments I didn’t see until now. As I came back to this sight I saw them. Again I apologize fo the rude way I commented before. I liked that you believed in hisory. That’s ok. I just wanted to say have room to dout history don’t always take it on face value. Because humans are not always logical. We don’t do something just because of a reason someone on the outside would think. It good to hear what you think. Since we don’t think alike, you gave me a fresh look on this matter. Wow can’t blieve this is part of history. It feels like just a drama or something. Have you been watching godess of fire Jung yi? Do you know by chance know about the Jung ti and the prince, if their romance is true? I can’t find about Jung yi anywhere since you seem to know alot thought I would ask… I used to watch cruel palace too got very tried of her plots. The main charcter should have the crowds simpthy but she seems to cruel for that.
          :) thanks

          • I am sorry I don’t really know much about her, I am not watching the drama currently, I am watching master sun.XD But As far as I Know about Jung Yi and Prince Gwanghaegun there was not a romance between them at least not recorded. their romance in the drama its fictional,
            she was a very skilled ceramist that was taken during the japanese invasion in 1592 among the hundred of artist that were taken from the japanese. http://asianhistory.about.com/od/southkorea/p/The-Ceramic-Wars-Hideyoshis-Japan-Kidnaps-Korean-Artisans.htm
            About Prince Gwanghaegun he was a skilled politician but nobles did not supported him because he was the second son and not the first son, he was deposed in a coup, thats why he did not get a temple name when he died, and is known as Gwanghae-gun (gun for prince) and did not receive the title jong (jong for king) or (jo) for great King but now historians agree he was actually a very good politician who manage to keep peace and worried for his humble people.

            Hope this help!
            Cheers

  6. Maria mercedes
    well said!! It is the best historical interpretation i had seen so far, I also have my thoughts about women being used as political tools… once again thanks for the links i really appreciated them I already checked some of the them..

    Samuelthom and babypess…You guys seems very workup whatever Maria mercedes or Dark strong made a comment, it look guys you don’t like to be contradicted, your previous comments sounds like they cant post information related to historical sources, Did I miss something? isn’t this blog related to Sageuk.. Historical Dramas..

    Babypess even call maria mercedes ideas ridiculous and call the links she posted useless, For what I read it looks like Babypess asked for them and then complain about it I see why she answered her saying they were done talking. and then you Samuelthom came running to reprend Maria mercedes for answering back to babypass but I found babypass even more rude… total bias.

    Maybe I should have not gotten into this discussion anyway for the other side I find all kind of ideas very interesting and for me that you guys take the time to explain customs and dates works very well it helps me understand a bit more the characters, their actions and how things worked in that period. It seems almost incredible that just 300 years ago these kind of things happened… Anyway as I say before Thanks again for the links… and for this wonderful blog that always had the best information.

    • I wasn’t gonna say anything but. Since someone on the outside of the conversation commented imma somethings. I don’t about you but questioning someones believe isn’t wrong. Maria sound like a rude girl by the away she responded in her comment , they all did but Maria seemed too out of shape in her last comment.
      But I agree with what Maria said tho . I blieve in historical evedince.

      • thats right, I was rude and I already apologized for it. as I said my last comment was not intend to be read in that way, I made the mistake of no reading my comment before posting and after I did not checked again.

        So I did not realized it sounded rude mostly if you weren’t involve in the conversation until Samuelth pointed out this was a conversation between baby pes and me, and she/he did understand my comment and didn’t get upset with it. you can see her comment below mine apologizing for the misunderstood.
        But Samuelth misunderstanding of the situation made it bigger of what had really happened, I think she/he should have wait for us (baby pess and me ) to resolved before accusing me of don’t let Babypeds comment or anything and send her links to try to change her mind… But this things happens I had already apologized to Samuelthom also, if my comment offended her/hi

    • SandyG

      First of all, it was the conversation between me, Samuelthom and Maria. For you to butt in half way and putting in your two cents is RUDE to me. If you didn’t read and understand what we all were talking about, you should of mind your own business. I believe Maria have the balls to share and debate with us (and she has) and didn’t need you to put up a defense for her.

      Regardless if this was a Saguek or Historical Drama, a drama is a drama. What part of that don’t YOU understand? I am entitled to have my opinions and post my comments just as you can. As for the links I’ve requested (if you have read my post carefully) is for the favor of others that believe in Historical Facts (LIKE YOU) to read. I didn’t request it to read it myself since I already stated (and Maria herself understood) that I don’t believe in Historical Facts. So how the hell is that contradicting? I have never even clicked on the links because I didn’t intend to read it at all. As for saying it was useless, I am saying it is useless to me and others that don’t believe in historical facts, but useful to others that do believe like Maria does. Should I have to break it down for you? I used ridiculous because from my understanding, Maria already accepted the fact that I don’t believe in historical facts and still made her opinions upon them several times on the post. I just found out that it was a misunderstanding from my part on the last post because what she wrote wasn’t intended for me, but for Samuelthom. Maybe you should have reread everything before you ASSUME because when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.

      Another rude thing you did was associate Samuelthom with me. If I’m the “RUDE” one, you say that about me and leave Samuelthom out of it. Samuelthom has been very neutral, direct, and straightforward when posting. Of course the postings would come with opinions. Just because we shared the same opinions, you want to take it as if we were both attacking Maria. When I felt I was rude or misunderstood, I either point it out or apologize on my part. Maria was forgiving and we both agreed that we are here to share information and opinions. I was here to dispute anything I felt was firm as far as the truth and point out to people that what we are doing here is mostly based on our opinions because a lot of people would confuse truths and opinions.

      Lastly, YOU are the rude one. You should practice what you preach.

      @ Samuelthom

      Maybe you should just ignore SandyG. I think because she shared the same opinions as Maria, she felt the need to attack us with something and then assume we were like that with Maria. You were neutral the entire time and if she didn’t see that, then she need to take a reading comprehension class.

    • Sandy G.
      really it was just a misunderstanding between us, I did not told babypess we were done talking in that moment but I was referring to the past not the present, because before that comment we had already said our goodbyes… (i am getting people more confused) anyway No hard feeling thou.
      You know with what you said about history I wonder what is going to say people about us from here in 300 years… Maybe people is going to make a movie where Hitler is actually a hero trying to save the word, what interesting and said since he was the loser and history is written for the winners, or maybe they are going to remain the same.. what is going history said about us in those years… Its a pity I wont be alive then… or maybe we as race are not going to be here anymore or maybe we are going to be better.. who knows!

  7. We are talking about events and she responded with why she tough it happened. And I responded back with another thought on why I think it happened. Its not like I blew off her ideas and told her I don’t want to listen to them. I wanted to challenge her ideas so we can both learn form this experience. She seems to have read a lot and if she doesn’t want to be questioned about what she read and what she believes then fine, then she shouldn’t have started this.
    One of the major things we talked about was whether the King loved Hui Bin at the end.This is merely of how he felt during that time. I understand historical fact can be used to argue this point . And she used historical facts like how he made a big deal out of it. I answered with logical since obviously we are talking how he felt. Most of the thing we talked about can be argued with logical thinking. The fact that he didn’t spare her at the end this doesn’t mean he didn’t love her. The letter thing didn’t seem convincing to Babypebs because she just sent her links to the what they wrote in history. I understand Babypebs asked for them. Maria should have known that she wouldn’t believe in them because she said she doesn’t believe in history. What was wrong with just saying I know you wouldn’t believe in them even if I sent it to you. But right now I don’t have an evidence that is convincing to you.
    I didn’t feel as though Maria was being nice to Babypebs. I understand that some of what Babypebs said was a little mean. But her reaction by saying I thought we were done made her sound like that Babypebs can’t say what she thinks anymore. Its good talk to people with different ideas. Babypebs has different ideas from Maria and I. What I was trying to say was lets not excluded each other and listen to each other without having hard feelings and more importantly open mind.
    I now some of the way I said things sounded mean and I do apologize for them.
    Thanks Babypebs and Maria Mercedes for the conversation.It was fun while it lasted thanks for staying by and sharing your thoughts! Hopefully we all learned something . Although the way we left wasn’t in a good manner. I hope we can all forgive each other. Thanks again you guys!! :)
    Keep Calm and love Joseon Dynasty!

    • @ Samuelthom & Maria

      Thank you Samuelthom! That is exactly the explanation that’s saving me from explaining to everyone right now. I just felt that SandyG was trying to instigate when the three of us are discussing and sharing our opinions. We’ve already apologized and forgiven each other before SandyG came along. I already explained to Maria that the links I’ve asked her for wasn’t for myself, but for others (like her) who believed in “historical facts” would want to read. I only had the idea of sharing in thoughts which was why I told her if she wanted to post to support her opinions, I’m not going to stop her and for her to know that I am not blowing off what she interpret. I just felt that SandyG was reading too much into one word instead of the whole sentence or paragraph. I did sound awfully mean when I use words like “duh!” or “useless”, but it was not meant to hurt anyone. I just had to use the word for the moment since I couldn’t think of a better description. I said the links were useless for me because Maria understood that I didn’t believe them. I didn’t mean to use it as a weapon to put her down. Then again, I don’t understand why SandyG would say that we were getting worked up and not allow Maria to post any link, when I in fact told Maria if she wanted to post links that historical fact believers want to read.

      We already came to the conclusion that we are sharing our thoughts and opinions. We now came to end this conversation. Once again, thank you Samuelthom and Maria for opening up and sharing with all of us.

      Have a blessed life!

      • My apologize Maria . It was a conversation between us all and I didn’t want us to be boken up because someone was rude or something and said those really rude things to you. Hope you don’t take it to heart.
        :) thank again

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